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UNITED STATES GRAND JURY

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

GHISLAINE MAXWELL
(Z01BR0O1618)

APPEARANCE GS:

FREE STATE REPORTING,
Court Beporting

D.C.

Balt. &

YORK

——X

*
=

January 1%, 2021 Additional

United States Courthouse
Foley Square

Mew York, New York

March 29, 2021
10:05 a.m.

I EN
I

States Attorney

States Attorney

1 Feporter

IHC.
Transcription
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BN ne 03/29/2021 2

-_

(Colloguy Precedes)

(Witness Enters Room)

lacy

a.m.)

NB BN called as a witness, having been duly sworn by

the Foreperson of the Grand Jury, was examined and

(Time Noted: 10:1

testified as follows:

0. Good morning.
A, Good morning.
0. Would you please state your name for the record?

io. Detective ne where do you work?

Fa New York City Police Department.
2. I'm going to ask vou to please keep your volce up,
and speak as slowly as you can.
UNIDENTIFIED SFPEAEEE. ——

0. And you can pull the microphone toward you so that

everyone in this big room can hear you. Thank you. Where
do you work?

A. Mew York City Police Department.

io. What is your title there?

A. Detective.

2. How long have you been with the NYPD?

A. About 15 years.

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Qo. Are you currently part of a federal task force?
A. Yes.

0. What task force?

Fa The Child Exploitation and Human Trafficking Task

Force with the FBI.

0. What is your title on the task force?

Ih. Task force cfficer.

0. How long have you been a task force officer with
the FBI?

Ih. Since about 2017.

Qo. Generally, what are your duties and

responsibilities on the task force?

Fa We address cases of child sex-trafficking, adult
sex—-trafficking, child pornography, and child enticement.

2. Over the last, approximately, three years have you
been involved in an investigation into Jeffrey Epstein and
his associates, including an individual named
Ghislaine Maxwell?

A. Yes.

Qo. Curing your investigation have vou spoken with
other pecple, including other law enforcement officers?

A. Yes.

2. Have vou reviewed reports and documents prepared
by others, and transcripts of testimony in other court and

grand jury proceedings?

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A. Yes.

Qo. Will your testimony today be based in part on
those conversations and documents that you have reviewed?

A. Yes.

MS. ne Ladies and gentlemen, some of the
testimony vou are going to hear from Detective le will
include hearsay. That means he is not going to testify only
from his own personal observations, he will also be
testifying about what other people have told him and what he
has read in documents.

Hearsay evidence, as vou know, 1s admissible and
proper in these proceedings, and you are permitted to rely
on it in determining whether there is probable cause to
indict the defendant, but if you want to hear testimony from
other witnesses, or see particular documents, please let me
know, and I will make my best efforts to bring those before
vou.

o. Detective ne over the course of your

investigation has another member of the FBI task force
vou're a part of testified before a different grand jury

about the facts of this case?

A. Yes,
2. I'd like to ask you to please pick up what should
pe in front of vou and marked as Grand Jury Exhibit 3. Do

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you recognize that?

A. Yes.

0. Is this document a falr and accurate transcript of
testimony given by FBI Special Agent before a
different grand jury, on June 29, 20207?

A. Yes.

Q. I'd 1ike to read back a portion of this
transcript. We will start at Page 2, Line 18. I will read

the questions, you read the answers.

2. "Where do you currently work?"

A. "The Federal Bureau of Investigation.”

Q. "What is your title?"

A. "Special agent."

Q. "How long have you worked as a special agent?"

A. "About three years now."

Q. "Where are you currently assigned?"

A. "I work on the Violent Crimes Against Children's
Squad.”

Q. "What are your duties and responsibilities as a

special agent on that squad?"

A. "We investigate crimes that have to do with child
sexual abuse material, sextortion, exploitation, and
enticement of minors, sex-trafficking."

MS. Be You can stop there. I'll now jump to

Page 4, line 13.

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BN Be 03/29/2021 ©
1 ll BY Ms. Be

Q. "Have you participated in an investigation of

[a

3 Ghislaine Maxwell?"

4 A. "Yes, I have."

0 QD. "Have you spoken to other people, including other
6 law enforcement officers about this investigation?”

Ni A. "Yes."

8 Q. "Have you reviewed reports and documents prepared
9 by others regarding this case?"
10 A. "Yes."
11 Q. "Is your testimony today based in part on those
12 conversations with other law enforcement officers and

13 documents that you have reviewed?"

14 A. "Yes."
15 MS. Be Stepping out of the read back. At

16 this point the AUSA provided the same hearsay instruction to
17 the grand jury, at that time, as I just provided to you all.

18 So that instruction applies with respect to

19 testimony the same way it applies to
20 Detective Be testimony.

21 We can now go down to Page 5, line 17.

22 || BY Ms. ne

23 2. TT we've placed on the desk in

24 front of you a PowerPoint that is Grand Jury Exhibit 2 which

25 we're entering into the record. Do you recognize this?"

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A, "Yes."
J. "What is it?"
A. "It's a PowerPoint presentation to assist in

testifying today."

io. "Did vou participate in preparing this Exhibit in
connection with your testimony today?"

A, "Yes, I did."

0. "If you could please turn to the first slide. Who
are the individuals depicted in these photographs?"

Ih. "The picture on the left is Ghislaine Maxwell, and
the picture on the right is Jeffrey Epstein with
Ghislaine Maxwell."

io. "Based on your participation in this investigation
and your review of public source materials, have Maxwell and

Epstein been photographed together many times over the

years?"
A. "Yes."
0. "Based on your participation in this investigation

and your review of public materials, where is Maxwell from?"
A, "Maxwell was born in France, she grew up in United
Kingdom, was educated in Oxford and is from a wealthy
family."
0. "Is she a citizen of France, the United Kingdom,
and the United States?”

oh. "Yes,"

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Qo. "How old is she currently?"
A. "Fifty-eight."
io. "Has the FBI investigated Maxwell and Epstein's

conduct with minors during the 15%0s7%"

A, "Yes."

2. "Generally speaking, what have vou learned about
the relationship between Maxwell and Epstein during the
1980s?"

A, "Epstein and Maxwell had a romantic relationship,
and she also worked for him; managing his homes, hiring and
firing individuals."

io. "During that time period, was she one of his
closest associates?"

A. "Yes."

2. "During the course of this investigation have you

learned where Epstein maintained properties in the 15%90s7%7"

a, "Yes."

0. "Where did he maintain properties?"

n. "New York, Palm Beach, and New Mexico."

0. "Turning to the next slide, did he maintain an

address in Manhattan located at % East 71st Street?"

Fa "Yes,"

2. "Does this slide fairly and accurately depict that
residence?"

A, "Yes."

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Qo. "Can vou please describe that property for the
grand jury?"

A. "It's a seven-story home. It's located near
Central Park. It's reportedly the largest residence in
Manhattan."

2. "Based on your participation in this

investigation, did that house include a room that was used

as a massage room?"

A. "Yes, it did."
0. "All right. We'll talk more about that later but
for now, moving on to the other properties. Did he maintain

an address in Palm Beach, Florida, located at
358 El Brillo Way?"
Fig "Yes."
0. "Turning to the next slide. Does this slide

fairly and accurately depict the residence?"

o. "Yes, 1t does."

0. "Could you please describe that property for the
grand jury?"

A, "It's a water-front estate. It has an in-ground

pool and a detached dwelling, or pool house, on the property

as well."

2. "Aside -- and from your participation in this

investigation and vour review of other materials, did that

house include a room that was used as a massage room?"

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A. "Yes."

Qo. "Turning to the next property. Did Epstein also
own a ranch in New Mexico?"

o. "Yes, he did."

0. "And turning to the next slide, was that a
property located at 4% Zorro Ranch Road in Stanley,
New Mexico?"

bo. "Yes."

o. "Looking at the photograph on this slide does this

accurately depict that property?"

L. "Yes, 1t does."
io. "And we've been talking about the properties that
Epstein owned during this time period. Did he also own a

private jet?"
A. "Yes."
2. "Is it fair to say that he was a multi-millicnaire

during this time period?

bo. "Yes."

o. "During the 1930s did Epstein have an employee,
IN he who ran his house in Palm Beach?"

o. "Yes, he did."

io. "What was his job?"

A. "His job was making sure that everything in the
house ran smoothly. He referred -- he described that

Epstein liked to have his house run like a five-star hotel;

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that everything had to be in its proper place. So he was

responsible for managing that."

io. "Have you interviewed BN ne

A. "Yes."

oJ. "How many times?"

A. "Twice."

2. "And is the information you're about to provide
pased on your interviews with BB ee

A. "Yes."

0. "Did ne begin working for Epstein in the early
1950s?"

o. "Yes, he did."

io. "At the time ne came to work for Epstein in

Falm Beach, was Epstein dating Ghislaine Maxwell at that

point?”
Ih. "Not at that time."
2. "Was it a few years before Epstein began dating
Maxwell after ne started working there?"
A. "Yes."
MS. ne I'm going to step out of the read
pack. It sounds like the grand jurors are having difficulty

hearing. Are you having difficulty hearing me, the witness,
or both?

RAND JURORS. The witness.

MS. ne So Detective I I'm going to ask

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vou to please keep your voice up. Try to shout into the
microphone. Can you pull the microphone toward you? Lift
it and pull it all the way up to you? Thank you. We left

off reading at Page 10, line 12.

0. "From what BN Be told vou, how did ne

—-

work change once Maxwell arrived on the scene?"

Ih. TN described Epstein as being of more
pleasant to work with prior to Maxwell coming into the
picture. Once she came into the picture, he said things
pecame more secretive. He wasn't allowed to be in the room
with guests, wasn't allowed to talk with them, associate
with them; it became a different environment."

MS. ne Detective I'm going to ask you
to take the microphone and try to put it right under where
vour mouth would be when you're reading because as you're

looking down, you're moving your mouth away from the

microphone. Thank you. Picking back up at Page 10,
line 20.
BY MS. ne

0. "You talked about some of the rules that were

placed, changing. Were there any rule changes about eye
contact once Maxwell began staying at the Palm Beach house?"
A. "Yes, ne wasn't allowed to make eve contact
with Epstein and others."
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03/29/2021 13

We're going to jump now to Page 11,

io. "Shifting gears. I want to talk to you about
someone else that yvou've interviewed during this
investigation. During the course of this investigation,

have you participated in interviews with an individual named

A. "Yes."

0. "So for these purposes, I'm just going to refer to
her as B Is that okay?"

A "Yes."

io. "How many times have vou lnterviewed Bl:
A. "Approximately five times."
2. "If you could please just page through the next

two slides in front of you? Are these photographs of

B. "Yes."
o. "Iz it your understanding that these photographs

depict ne from approximately ages 13 to approximately

1772"

o. "Yes, 1t does."

0. "Okay. Let's take a look at some of those
photographs. I'm going to publish the next slide. Is

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Fi) "Yes."

Qo. "Are these two photographs of Bl:

A. "Yes, they are.”

io. "If you could turn to the second slide of
photographs, are these also photographs of I

A. "Yes,"

2. "Based on your participation in this investigation

and your interviews with | where was she living when

she was approximately 14 years old?"

Ih. "She was living in Palm Beach, Florida."

Qo. "Who was she living with when she was 147"

A. "Her mother and her siblings."

0. "What was her whole life like at that time?"

A. "At that time her father had passed away the year

prior, so the family was struggling financially and having
come difficulties."
2. "What did Bl : father do before he passed away?

What was his profession?"

o. "Yes, she was."
0. "Were her siblings?"
A. "Yes,"

0. "What kinds of BB were they involved in?"

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A, "Singing. She was a singer."

0. "Like, what kind of singer?"

A. "Opera."

0. "In the summer of 19%94, how old was BB:

Fa "She was 13 going on 14."

0. "You testified earlier that her birthday was in
kK So did she turn 14 in CB

bo. "Yes."

0. "What did she do that summer?"

Ih. "She attended an arts camp at Interlochen Center

for the Arts."

io. "And is Interlochen summer arts program located in
Michigan?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "Did ne meet Jeffrey Epstein and

Ghizlaine Maxwell that summer?"

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "Did she meet them at summer camp?"

A. "Yes."

Qo. "What did she tell you about that?"

A. "She said that she was sitting at a picnic table

with friends when Epstein and Maxwell walked by. They
stopped to talk to her, engaged her in conversation, asked
her if she liked her classes; her teachers. During that

conversation she found out that she was also from Palm Beach

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and that he said he gives scholarships to students.”

0. "How did they leave the conversation? Was there
any contact information exchanged?"

Fa "They asked for BB: phone number."

io. "As part of your investigation have you attempted
to gather records to corroborate that | Maxwell, and
Epstein were all at that summer camp that summer?"

bo. "Yes."

o. "If you could turn to the next slide, please.

Have vou obtained records from Interlochen for the summer of

196472"
A. "Yes,"
io. "And what are we looking at on this slide?"
oh. "This shows who —— some of the individuals that

were there, were present for that camp in '94. On here is
_ — ________B
. "And have you investigated whether Maxwell and
Epstein were also at Interlochen that summer of 1934 as
- described?”
. "Yes.
0. "Based on your review of records from Interlochen,

what is your understanding of Epstein's relationship with

Interlochen?"
A. "My understanding was that he was a donor to the
school.

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Qo. "Did he make any substantial donations?"

A. "He did."

io. "Did he donate a lodge to the camp in the summer
of 199472"

A. "Yes, he did."

2. "Did he have a long-standing relationship as a

donor to Interlochen?"

Ih. "Yes,"

o. "Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt of
a letter from Interlochen to Epstein?

L. "Yes, 1t is."

io. "And does this letter thank Epstein for donating a

scholarship lodge?"

A, "Yes."

2. "Does it invite Epstein to wisit in August of
195472"

Ih. "Yes,"

0. "In 1894 did Epstein have a private jet?"

A, "Yes, he did."

Qo. "Have wou obtained the flight logs for that jet?"

A, "Yes."

io. "Do those logs include passenger lists and the

airport code for the airports the plane flew into and out
of?"

oh. "Yes,"

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Qo. "Turning to the next slide. Is this a page of the
flight logs that you reviewed?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "And on this excerpt of the flight logs, where the
red arrow is, 1s that a log entry showing an August 18, 19%4
flight to an airport with the airport code TBC?"

ho. "Yes."

0. "Is TBC the airport code for Cherry Capitol

Airport in Traverse City, Michigan?"

In. "Yes, 1t is."

Qo. "About how far is that airport from Interlochen by
car?"

Fa "About £5 minutes, give or take."

2. "And who were the listed passengers on this
flight?"

o. "Jeffrey Epstein, a (ph), and

0. "Turning to the next slide. Is it the same

excerpt just with a different arrow?"

A. "Yes."

io. "Okay. So a few lines down is there a flight out
of Traverse City just two days later, on August 20, 19947"

A. "Yes,"

2. "And do the passengers listed in the flight out of
Traverse City include the initials GM?"

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A, "Yes, they do."

0. "Are those Ghislaine Maxwell's initials?"

A, "Yes."

io. "Have you obtained any records from Interlochen to

indicate that Maxwell was at Interlochen in 15947"

A. "Yes."

2. "If we could turn to the next slide. Can you
please explain for the grand jury what we're locking at on
this slide?"

Ih. "This was a letter from Interlochen
explaining —-- addressed to Maxwell -- telling her that they
had found an envelope in the lodge that they had been
staying."

2. "All right. We were talking a few minutes ago
about how ne described meeting Maxwell and Epstein at
summer camp and you testified that she provided them with
her phone number. Did ne explain to you whether or not
she had any contact with Epstein or Maxwell after she

returned home to Palm Beach?"

A. "Yes."

io. "When was the next time that happened?"

Fa "Shortly thereafter."

0. "and how did that occur?"

In. "She was invited to his house, so her and her

mother went to Epstein's house to wisit."

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Qo. "What did ne tell you about that visit to

Epstein's house with her mother?"
A. "She said it was -- walt, can you rephrase that?"
io. "Of course. Did he go to the house by
herself or with her mother?"
A, "With her mother."
2. "Okay. When they went to the house what did they

do there?

A, "They had tea."

0. "Who was there when they had tea at the house?"
A, "Epstein and Maxwell."

io. "What did they discuss as they had tea?"

Fa "They just talked about her life and, vou know,

what she wanted to do."

2. "Did Epstein make any offers?"

Ih. "He said that he gives scholarships; he likes to
mentor people."

0. "How did Bl : mother react when Epstein said

A, "She was happy for her daughter and often times
referred to Epstein as Bl: godfather."
io. "After that occasion when they went over to the

house, thereafter, did ne subsequently begin regularly

—

spending time with Maxwell and Epstein at Epstein's house in
Falm Beach?"

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A. "Yes."

Qo. "Did that start when she was approximately age
1472"

A. "Yes."

io. "Did it continue until she was about age 17%"

A. "Yes, it did."

2. "And during those years does she regularly go over

to Epstein's house in Palm Beach and spend time with Maxwell
and Epstein?"
bh. "Yes."

Qo. "What happened in the summer of 19397 when [|

was 17, about to turn 1872"

Fa "She moved to New York City."

2. "Why did she move to New York City?"

A. "She wanted to pursue a career in acting and
modeling.”

0. "We'll talk about that in a moment, but for now, I

want to focus on the years you talked about, in Falm Beach,
from the ages 14 to 17, when le would regularly go to
Epstein's house. In the beginning, in the first few months
when she went there, what kinds of things did she do when

she would visit the house when Maxwell and Epstein were

there?"
A. "They'd hang out by the pool. He -- they would
take her to the movies, take her shopping. She described

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that behavior as grooming."

Qo. "When wou say grooming, did she explain what she
meant by that?"

Fa "She meant that they were building a relationship
with her, giving her things, taking her places, and then
usually when the grooming happens, an offender will -- once
they gain that trust -- they will make their relationship
turn sexual."

o. "Now vou testified just a moment ago that ne
described to you that she felt at this time period they were
grooming her, is that right?"

A, "Yes."

io. "Is that something that she realized at the time
when she was 14, or is that something she's described to you
nowz"

Ih. "Something she's described now. She didn't
realize that at the time."

0. "So we'll talk a little bit more about grooming in
a moment, but just to give context, are you familiar with
the term grooming based on your experience investigating
crimes involving sexual exploitation of minors?"

A, "Yes."

2. "Generally speaking, vou were touching on this a
moment ago, but if you could just explain it in full, what
is grooming?"

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A, "Grooming is when someone builds a relationship
with a child. They will find a vulnerability or a need and
then they work on gaining that child's trust. And then
often times gaining a parent's trust. Once they have that
trust, they show that in ways that they can care about them;
like giving them gifts and promises. And then once that's
established, they then turn the relationship sexual; often
times, making sexual comments and normalizing the behavior."

o. "Now during these wisits that you've been

describing, that le told you about, did ne say whether

Epstein ever gave her anything?"

o. "Yes, she did."
io. "What did he give her?"
A. "He gave her cash. Sometimes he'd tell her to

give the cash to her mom because he knew that they needed
it. He paid for her voice lessons as well."

2. "Now vou were describing how BN has
characterized these visits now, but based on your
conversations with her, at the time did she feel that these
visits were strange at all?"

A. "She thought they were strange, but Maxwell
normalized it for her. She was like a cool, older sister
and made comments like, this is what grownups do."

0. "You used the phrase cool, older sister. Is that

a phrase that used to describe how she felt about

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Maxwell at the time, and what Maxwell was like?"

A. "Yes. Those are her words."

0. "Did there come a time —-- these visits —-—- when
ne saw Maxwell topless by the pool?"

Lb. "Yes,"

0. "What did she tell you about that?"

Ih. "She was a little taken back, but Maxwell just

acted normal."

o. "Did ne tell you about an incident several
months into this arrangement when she was alone with Epstein
in the pool house?”

A. "Yes,"

"And when they were alone together, did Epstein

iJ.
ask Be what she wanted to do with her life?"
Fy

. "He did."
2. "What did she say?"
a, "She said she wanted to be an actress and a
model."
o. "How did Epstein respond?”
A. "He told her that he was best friends with the
owner of Victoria's Secret. Told her that she would have to

have photographs taken and that she had to be comfortable in
her underwear and not be a prude. When she was asked what
she meant by that, he pulled her into his lap and

masturbated."

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0. "What was her reaction?"
A, "She felt paralyzed. She froze."
0. "After this incident did Bl encounters with

Epstein begin to include sexual contact?"

A. "Wes,"

0. "Over time did the sexual abuse escalate?”

A. "Tt did."

0. "From what she's described to you, did the abuse

include Epstein digitally penetrating Bl:

bh. "Yes."

Qo. "Did it include Epstein using a vibrator on her?"
A. "Yes,"

io. "Did she describe to you that there were times

when Epstein would direct [| to massage him while he

masturbated?”
Fa) "Yes."
2. "Did explain to you what her memories are

like of the abuse?"

A. "Yes."

Qo. "What did she say about that?"

A. "She said that it happened so often that it all
kind -- it all runs together for her. That it's hard to

separate out some of the different instances of abuse."
2. "You were describing how Be explained to vou

that the abuse began. Did that occur, based on what ne

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told you, within the first year that she met Epstein and
Maxwell?"

bh. "Yes,"

io. "Now did also describe to you that once this
abuse started Epstein would also bring her into his massage
room in his house?"

ho. "Yes."

0. "and were there times, where he did this, where

there were other women present, including Maxwell?"

bh. "Yes."

J. "Was le abused during those episodes?”

o. "Yes, she was."

io. "During these group encounters what were le and

the adult women wearing?"

A. "They were usually just in their underwear."

2. "Once they were all in the massage room, how would
these episodes generally start?"

Ih. "They would generally start with one of the girls
massaging Epstein. a was usually massaging his feet.
Maxwell was kind of teasing the other girls. She'd grab the
girl's breasts, and she would direct the girls on what to
do."

0. "When these episodes would start, in general, was
Epstein generally lying face down on the massage table?"

A. "Yes."

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Qo. "What would happen as things progressed, generally
speaking, from what she described to you?"

A. "When Epstein would decide he was kind of done
with the regular massage, he would turn over on his back,
and he'd grab whichever girl he wanted to, either, touch him
or whatever girl he wanted to touch."

2. "Did these episodes include sex acts that over
time, in warious instances, included Epstein masturbating,

Epstein receiving oral sex, and Epstein engaging in

intercourse?"
A. "Yes."
io. "You were describing for a moment what [| told

vou about Maxwell's role during these group encounters.
Would Maxwell sometimes guide the women and give

instructions about what to deo?"

o. "Yes, she would."

2. "What would he typically do during these
episodes?”

A, "She would try not to look at Maxwell because she
gave off that sister-wvibe, so it felt weird for her. She

would try to be invisible in the room so they would ignore
her as much as possible."

2. "In the beginning, when Bl : approximately 14
or 15, would she generally begin by just massaging Epstein's
feet?"

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A. "Yes."

Qo. "Iz that something she was told to do?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Did she -- you mentioned that she tried to be
invisible -- was -- I believe that was your testimony?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "And over time has she described to you that over

time she helijeved she became more involved in the sexual

activity which varied in each encounter?"

bo. "Yes."

Qo. "Were there times -- let me rephrase that. How
did -- you touched on this for a moment, but just to be
clear —-- how did Be describe Maxwell's attitude during

these incidents?"

In. "It was very casual; she acted like this was
normal. She gave off that wibe to her and yeah."
0. "Did that make her feel more comfortable with what

was happening?"

A. "It did."

Qo. "Was le sometimes fully nude during these
episodes?”

A. "Yes."

2. "And during these episodes did the abuse include
Epstein touching CE breasts?"

A. "Yes,"

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Qo. "Did it include directing a to touch Epstein's
genitals?”

A. "Yes,"

io. "Beginning when Bl approximately 14, does
she begin to travel with Epstein and Maxwell to
New York City on occasion?"

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "Was that to the property you testified about
earlier; the townhouse on the upper-east side?"

bo. "Yes."

0. "When le traveled to New York City, did she
stay in Epstein's townhouse in New York City?

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "Did she recall that Maxwell and Epstein took her

shopping on one of her early trips to New York City?"

bh. "Yes."

2. "Did she remember them buying her anything?"

Ih. "She recalled them buying her white cotton
underwear. Her description was that they were like little

girl's underwear."

io. "From ages 14 to 17 did Epstein ask I to
periodically fly to New York for weekends at that townhouse
in New York?"

A. "I'm sorry, say it again?"

2. "You testified that she began travelling to

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New York City at age 14. Did she then periodically travel
to New York City, in a similar manner, from ages 14 to 177"
A. "Yes,"
0. "Were there times, when she travelled on those

trips, when she flew on Epstein's private jet?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "Did she also sometimes fly commercially?"

In. "Yes, she did."

o. "Was Maxwell sometimes present on the trips to Hew
York?"

A. "Yes."

io. "You testified earlier that le was sexually
abused in Palm Beach. Did she describe to you that she was

also sexually abused on these trips to New York?"

In. "Yes, she did."

2. "Did Maxwell encourage ne to go on these
trips?"

bh. "Yes."

o. "What does le -—- what did [| tell you about

her memory of how these trips were arranged?"

A. "She recalled that Maxwell was usually the one
that would schedule her flights. If she was flying
commercially she would schedule the flights, sometimes
calling her mother to schedule."

2. "Was that the general impression of how they were

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arranged?”
A. "Yes."
io. "In addition to the trips to Mew York City you

just described, did ne also remember travelling, at least
once, to Epstein's ranch in New Mexico?"

In. "Yes, she did."

2. "Does she remember whether or not she was sexually
abused in New Mexico?"

A, "She couldn't recall. She couldn't remember."

0. "In general, how would ne get to the alrport in
Florida when she would fly on Epstein's jet; what did she
describe to you?"

Fa "Usually a driver; one of Epstein's drivers would
pick her up from her house and take her to the airport.”

2. "Now vou testified earlier that you reviewed

flight records for Epstein's private jet, is that correct?"

bh. "Yes."
0. "And have you reviewed records from the 192%0s3 to
see if there -- whether there's a person named le listed

on the records?"

bh. "Yes,"

io. "Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt
from those records?"

In. "Yes, 1t is."

0. "And does the red arrow point to -- does the red

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arrow point to a November 11th, 1%%9& flight?"

L. "Yes, 1t does."

io. "And does this say —- does this flight log reflect
that it was a flight from Palm Beach, Florida to Teterboro,
New Jersey?"

Ln. "Yes,"

0. "Is there a private airfield in Teterboro,

New Jersey?"

n. "Yes, there is."

0. "What's it called?"

A, "Teterboro Airport.”

io. "Are the passengers listed on this entry JE?"
Lb. "Yes,"

0. "Are the —-—- do the entries also include

Be (ph) plus friend, Jeff Shamf's (ph), family,

B (ph), ne (ph), ne (ph), and EB

ho. "Yes."

0. "Was | based on your awareness of BB:
date of birth and the date of this flight, was le le on
the date of this flight?"

o. "Yes, she was."

io. "Turning to the next slide. You testified earlier
about Teterboro Airport. What are we locking at on this
slide?"

A. "This is directions from Teterboro Airport to

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Epstein's residence here in Manhattan."

Qo. "So based on your review of this map, 1f someone
were to fly into Teterboro and travel to New York City,
would they -- would the most natural route be to travel to
Teterboro Airport and crossing into New York through
Manhattan?"

bh. "Yes."

0. "Turning to the next slide. Is this also an
excerpt from the flight records that you've reviewed?"

In. "Yes, 1t is."

Qo. "And does this show a May 9, 1997 flight from
Teterboro, New Jersey to Santa Fe, New Mexico?"

o. "Yes, 1t does."

0. "And are the passengers listed on this log JE, GM,
and Bl:

bh. "Yes."

2. "Based on your knowledge of BB: pirthdate and
the date of this flight, would a have been 1lé on the
date of this flight?"

L. "Yes, she would have been.”

io. "Turning to the next flight -- slide. Is this
also an excerpt from the flight records?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "And does the red arrow point to a flight entry on

May 3, 195872"

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A. "Yes, 1t does.™

0. "Based on the airport codes, did this reflect that
there 1s a flight on that date from Palm Beach, Florida to
Teterboro, New Jersey?"

A. "Yes."

Q. "And are the passengers listed on this log JE, GM,

A. ge i My
Q. "Based on your knowledge of Bl: birthday and

the date of this flight, would he have been 17 on this

date?”
A. "Yes."
0. "Am I correct that you testified earlier that in

addition to sometimes flying on Epstein's private jet, she
also travelled on commercial airlines, 1s that right?"

A. "Yes, it is."

Q. "Based on your review of these flight logs, does
every flight entry list the name of every single passenger;

or are there sometime when a passenger is noted female?"

A. "There's times where a passenger is just noted
Iemale.™

0. "I'm going to walk —- talk to you about two
examples of that. Turning ahead two slides. Looking at

Slide 18, does this reflect a January 3rd, 1995 flight where

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the flight log says JE, two females?"
L. "Yes, 1t does."
0. "And do the two entries below, also, just list

female next to the initials JE?"

Fa "Yes, they do."
0. "Turning to the next slide, Slide 19%. Is this
another example of an entry like that; focusing on the entry

on February 12, 1935732"

A. "Yes."

0. "Does that entry also say, female?"

L. "Yes, 1t does."

0. "Now, vou testified that le sometimes flew on

commercial airlines and that arrangements for her travel
were made for her to fly commercially for these trips, is

that right?"

ho. "Yes."

2. "Have you been able to obtain commercial flight
records?"

A. "We tried. We were not able to obtain those

records."

oJ. "Why is that?"

Fa "Airlines do not keep records past a certain
year,"

2. "Does Be recall group sexualized massages

involving Epstein and Maxwell, in both the New York and

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03/29/2021 36

Florida residences, during the time period we've been
talking about?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "You testified earlier about the time that Epstein
and Maxwell would spend together and the activities that
they were involved in. During this time period did le
Maxwell?"

have occasions to talk with

Ih. "She —— I'm sorry, can you ask the question
again?"
0. "During the beginning when she was 14, when she

pegan spending time with Epstein and Maxwell, and through

the years, did le often have conversations with Maxwell

about her life?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "Did they talk about that often?”

A, "They did."

0. "Did Maxwell ask le about her family, her
classes, and other aspects of her life?”

n. "Yes, she did."

0. "You testified earlier, just before she turned 18,

I moved to New York City, is that right?"

A.
J.
senior ye

A.

"Yes."
"Did she go to school there in New York
ar?"

"Yes, she did."

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Q. "What school did she go to?"

A, "They cater to individuals who want to pursue

careers in the arts."

io. "Have you reviewed records from the a

T

io. "If you could turn to Slide 17. Can you pleas

explain for the grand jury what we're locking at here?"
A, "This 1s an excerpt from Bl: application to

the Ch On it is listed, who is

financially responsible for her, and that is

Jeffrey Epstein.”

HH

oJ. "From what Be told you did Maxwell encourag

ne to accept Epstein's financial help?"

J. "When ne moved to New York City who was she
living with?"
A, "She lived with her mother and her brother
in —- a apartment."
oJ. "Did Epstein help pay for her rent?"
A, "He did."

oJ. "During that year, her senior year of high school,

when she was in New York City, did Be remain in contact

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with Epstein?”

Fiy "Yeo "

io. "What was the nature of their contact like during
that time period?"

Fa "During this time he was still sexually abusing

0. "Did that continue to occur at his townhouse in
Manhattan that year?"

A, "Yes, 1t did."

0. "What happened at the end of her senior year of
high school?”

A. "She moved to Los Angeles to pursue a career in

acting."

2. "Did she get a job as an actress when she turned
12"

A, "She did."

2. "Has lived in Los Angeles and worked as an

actress on television ever since then?"
Fiy "Yeo RL
0. "After she moved to Los Angeles, did she continue

peing in touch with Epstein?"

Fa "For a short pericd of time."

0. "Did she ultimately break contact with him?"
In. "Yes, she did."

2. "Is currently pursuing a civil lawsuit

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against Maxwell and Epstein's estate?"

A, "Yes."

0. "Have you talked with ne about whether, when
she was a teenage girl and all of this was happening,
whether she told anyone that she was being sexually abused?"

A. "Yes. She said she didn't tell anyone. She felt
like she couldn't. She -- the -- nothing was talked about
outside of that room, so 1t made it so that she couldn't
talk about it. And then she also -- her mother is Middle
Eastern, and her mother raised her that women are supposed
to do what they're told even if someone is beating vou.

When she was 13 and her father passed, she, she
went to a guidance counselor at school te talk about it, and
her mother found cut about it and smacked her. She felt
like she couldn't talk te anvone about it."

2. "Did Bl: mother encourage her to accept
Epstein's financial assistance?"

In. "Yes, she did."

o. "Have wou become aware that in 2005 police
officers from the Palm Beach Police Department executed a
search warrant at Epstein's house at the
El Brillc Way address in Palm Beach?"

A, "Yes."

0. "Have you reviewed some of the materials seized

during the search?"

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A "Yes."
Qo. "Did they find massage tables and sex toys?"
A. "Yes, they did."

io. "Did they find any photographs of CC K

A. "Yes."
2. "Was one of the photographs signed by BB:

oon
Was.

ok

A. "Yes, it

0. "Did it

fe} "Yeo,"

savy,

Qo. "During vour

interviews with | did ne tell

vou how she felt about Epstein and Maxwell in the 90s when

she was a young girl?"

A. "She did. EShe expressed that she felt like they

loved her.

supported

She felt they were her family;

that they

her, and that they felt like -- she was made to

feel that she was needed to be grateful to them."
0. "Okay. Did she tell you that she felt like they

were trying to help her?"

fe) "Yeo,"

2.

about this

A.

id.

to you what

"Have you talked with ne about how she feels
now?"
"Yes LL
"What was CE demeanor like when she described

Epstein and Maxwell had done to her?"

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A, "She was upset. She recognized that now. It's
affected her life to a great degree. She's struggled in
relationships with opening up to people and trusting people;
poth personal and professional relationships.”

io. "Did she tell you that she struggled to tell

anyone what had happened to her for most of her adulthood?"

bh. "Yes."

0. "When was the first time you interviewed Bl:
A. "Last fall."

0. "Was that the first time she ever reported this to

aw enforcement?"

o. "Yes, 1t was."

io. "Now vou testified earlier about your interviews
with BN ne who worked at Epstein's Palm Beach house.
Did he remember a girl named Be coming to the house
during that time?"

o. "Yes, he did."

0. "Did he recall Ck Maxwell, and Epstein meeting

in the Palm Beach house together?"

A. "Yes."

io. "What was his understanding of why le was
there?"

A. "He thought that Epstein was helping her. That's

what Epstein had told him, and ne had told him that
Epstein was helping her."

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Q

. "Did he ever observe Epstein interacting with
he physically?"
A. "Yes,"
0. "What did he sees?"
Fa "He saw Epstein kiss Bl: cheek and pat her on

the bottom."
2. "Did he have any knowledge about what was

happening with Epstein or Maxwell when he wasn't present?"

A, "He didn't."

0. "Did ne ever recall picking up BN from her
house?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "And when he would pick her up from her house,

—-

would he then bring her back to the Palm Beach house?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "Did he remember who, in general, would tell him
to pick up le from her house?"

Ih. "Maxwell would be the one to tell him to pick her
up.

Qo. "Did he recall ever driving le to the movies?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "What did he tell you about that?"

In. "That would usually be Epstein, Maxwell, and

E they would go to the movies, and it would usually be

late at night."

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Qo. "Did he tell you about what his memory was about
how old ne was?"
A. "He said she was voung, and that he knew that

pecause he had picked her up from schocl, and that he knew
she was too young to drive."

2. "Switching gears. I want to talk to you about a
different aspect of your interviews with BN ne Based
on what he told about his job duties, were there ever times

where he would have to clean Epstein's massage room?”

bo. "Yes."
Qo. "What did he tell vou about that?"
A. "He said that he found sex toys in the massage

room, and he had to wash them afterwards."

0. "Aside from those experiences, was he aware if
there were any sex toys in the house?"

Ih. "Yes. There was a basket of sex toys that were
kept in Maxwell's closet.”

0. "Did ne stop working for Epstein in

approximately 20027"

A. "Yes."

io. "Was he told that he was being replaced?"

A. "Yes."

2. "And was he generally aware that the person who

replaced him was much younger?"

A. "Yes."

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2.

left worki

issues in

A.

J.

and tried

IL.

Q.

dollars?"

Ln.

2.

it?"

A.

id.

"Did ne tell you that a few months after he
ng for Epstein he became suicidal because of

his marriage?"

"Yes."

"Did he tell you that he went to Epstein's house
to take Epstein's gun?”

"Yes, he did."

"Did he tell you that it's worth several thousand

"Yeg,"

"Did Epstein discover this and confront him about

"Yes, he did."

"Did ne admit to Epstein and the police what

he had done?"

IL.

Q.

missing?"

incident?"

"Veg,"

"Did Epstein also tell the police his gun was

"Yeo,"

"Were there any charges filed?"
RL

"Was he ever arrested?"

"I don't believe so."

"And did Epstein pursue any charges about this

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A, "No. He didn't pursue anything."

Qo. "Have wou interviewed one of Epstein's former

A. "Yes."

io. "Is that pilot named David Rodgers?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "Was he one of the pilots for Epstein's private

jet in the 1590577"

A. "Yes."

0. "Did he remember a travelling on the
jet in the 90s72"

A. "He remembered her travelling, but he didn't
remember specifics.”

2. "So just to be clear, is your testimony that he
didn't remember the specific dates of the flights, but he
remembered her travelling on the jet during the 1930s7%"

bh. "Yes."

0. "And did he remember a specifically as
a person who travelled?"

A. "Yes."

io. "Did vou discuss with him the flight records that
we talked about earlier that lists a person named Be as a
passenger?”

A. "Yes,"

2. "Did he have a specific memory of those exact

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flights?"
B "No."

io. "But was he aware of any other Be flying on the

jet, besides | in the 1990s?"
L. "No. No other le at the time."

0. "Earlier, when we were looking at Interlochen

attendance records for the summer of 19%4, you noted that

was one of the names on that record, 1s that

right?"

B. "Yes."
B. "Yes."

io. "Have you interviewed BE :
In. "Yes, I have."

2. "Did he tell you that he remembered le talking
that summer at camp about having met Jeffrey Epstein?"

bh. "Yes."

0. "Did he tell you that he remembered ne going

over to Epstein's house in Palm Beach when they were in high

bh. "Yes,"

0. "Did he remember that would often talk about
spending time with Maxwell and Epstein during this time?"

A. "Yes."

2. "Did he remember he telling him they -- when

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they were in high school -- about at least one trip to

New York City

Fa) "Yes."

io. "Did he remember le describing Epstein's

townhouse in Manhattan?"
A "Yes,"
0. "ind does

Ghizlaine Maxwell?"

A. "Yes."

0. "Now based on your interviews with BB did he

tell you whether he knew back then,

school, whether ne Was

L. "He didn't know

0. "Did BB ever me

In. "Yes, he did."
0. "What did he remember about that?"
Ih. "He remembered Epstein, Maxwell, and ne peing

near a movie theatre, and

time and le would have

of interaction they had.

told him that Maxwell had

could teach ms a thing or two."

2. "Is that something that he remembers ne telling

him back then,

Fo) "Yes."

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that she took with Epstein?”

he remember Be talking often about

that Maxwell said?"

03/29/2021 47

when they were in high
peeing sexually abused by Epstein?"
pack then."

et Ghislaine Maxwell?"

he was approximately 1& at the

peen 15, and just the little bit

And then after that, le had

sald something to the effect of, I

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-

Qo. "During the course of this investigation have you

participated in any interviews with an individual named

Fa) "Yes."

io. "So for today's purposes, I'm just going to refer

to her as | How many times have vou referred to

(verbatim) Bl: "

ever

high

Ih. "Approximately, twice."

M5. ne Excuse me.

Qo. "How many times have vou interviewed CB
A. "Approximately twice."

0. "Now does ne Know KE Have they
met before as far as you know?"

"As far as I know, no."

=]

2. "Turning to the next slide. Are these photographs

when she was in high school?"

A. "Yes,"
0. "And is her date of birth I
A. "Yes,"

io. "When Ie was approximately 16 and a junior in

= i

school where was she living?

I. "She was living in ne with her mother.”

2. "Does she have any siblings?"

"An older sister."

=]

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0. "what did her older sister do?"

A, "Her older sister lived -- worked for Epstein.”
io. "Where did she work for Epstein?”

A, "Here in New York."

io. "Did there come a time, in approximately December

19%5, when le had a phone conversation with her sister

about travelling to New York City?"

bh. "Yes."

o. "What did they discuss?"

Ih. "They discussed her coming to New York and meeting
Epstein.”

io. "What did her sister tell ne about why she

should meet Epstein?"

A. "She said that he could help her with her
college.”
2. "And did she say -- does the sister say whether

the sister wanted her to meet Epstein, or did she say
whether Epstein wanted to meet CH

A, "Epstein wanted to meet Bl

Qo. "Now let me just pause here. You testified that
this happened in approximately December of 19%5. Just for
context, the years that we were talking about with le
| was that 1%94 through 158772"

A. "Yes,"

2. "So is this approximately the same time period

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while what you described ne telling you happened?”

A. "Yes."

io. "So in January of 15%96 did le fly on a
commercial airline to New York City to spend a weekend with

her sister and meet Jeffrey Epstein?"

A. "Yes,"

id. "Did she tell you that?"

A. "Veg

a. "During the trip did ne tell you that she met

Epstein at his townhouse in New York City?"
L. "Yes, she did."
io. "Did she tell you that Epstein discussed her plans

for college applications and offered to help her?"

A, "Yes."

2. "What was Bl: first impression of Jeffrey
Epstein?"

Ih. "She was very impressed by him."

0. "What did she -- what was her impression, based on

this conversation, of what Epstein was going to do for her?"

A, "That he was going to help her with her future
plans for college."

io. "During that trip to New York City did she stay at
Epstein's townhouse or at her sister's apartment?"

A. "Her sister's apartment."

2. "During that trip did she tell vou that she saw

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Epstein a second time when he took Be and her sister to

the movies?"

A. "Yes,"
io. "What did she tell you happened at the movies?"
Fa "She said that they were sitting in the theatre

and Epstein was between le and her sister, and Epstein

put his hand on her leg;

hands -- held hands with her."

o. "From what she told you, what was her impression
about whether her sister could see what was going on?"

A, "She felt like her sister couldn't see.”

io. "What was her reaction to this happening?"

A, "She was uncomfortable."

0. "After the movie did she tell her sister what had
happened?”

o. "No, she didn't."

2. "Did she say why not?"

In. "She said that she knew Ck her sister, really
liked Epstein and that Epstein could help them. So she
didn't tell her."

io. "After this trip did le go back home to

A. "Yes,"
0. "Did Epstein contact her afterwards?"
A. "Yes,"

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he rubbed her arm and held her

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Qo. "Did he discuss with her, her ongoing college
plans?"

A. "Yes, he did."

0. "Did he invite her to a weekend at his ranch in

New Mexico in the spring of 1%9&7"

A. "Yes,"

0. "Was she 16 at the time?"

In. "Yes, she was."

0. "From what she told you, what was Bl :

impression of who would be on this trip to New Mexico?"
A, "She knew Maxwell would be there."
io. "Did she -- was she told anyone else was going to

be present during this trip?"

A, "She said that there would be like other students
her -- kids her age."
2. "And what was her understanding of who these other

kids were and why they would be there? Sorry, let me --"

Ih. "Fephrase."

o. "Rephrase that question. You testified that she
was told that on this trip that there would be other
students. Was she under the impression that there would be
other students like her on the trip who were also being
mentored by Epstein?"

A. "Yes."

2. "Now vou testified just a moment ago that she was

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also told that Maxwell would be there. Are you referring to
Ghislaine Maxwell?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "At the point that she was told that
Ghislaine Maxwell would be on this trip, had she ever met
Ghislaine Maxwell?"

o. "No, she hadn't."

0. "Had she heard her sister talk about
Ghislaine Maxwell?"

bo. "Yes."

Qo. "How did -- from what she described to you -- how
did her expectation that Maxwell would be on this trip make
her feel about the trip?"

A, "It made her comfortable. Her sister had talked
highly of Maxwell."

2. "Did ne tell you that she flew to New Mexico
that spring when she was 167"

bo. "Yes."

0. "Did she meet Ghislaine Maxwell when she arrived
in New Mexico?"

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "How did she describe Maxwell's demeanor and
attitude when she met her?"

A. "She described Maxwell as being very charming.

She gave her a tour of the house, and Maxwell took BN

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shopping which made her feel special."
Qo. "What does she remember talking about with

Ghislaine Maxwell?"

Fa "They talked about school, homework, trips."

io. "Did she talk with her about applying to college?"
A, "Yes."

2. "Did she talk about her classes in high school?"
Ih. "Yes,"

0. "Did she talk with her about the homework that she

had to do that weekend?"

A. "Yes."

io. "Did she talk with Maxwell about her family?"
A. "Yes."

0. "Did she talk with her about her home life and

living with her mother?"

a, "Yes."

0. "From what BN told you, when she got there, who
else was at the ranch besides Ghislaine Maxwell and
Jeffrey Epstein?"

A, "It was just them."

io. "Was it just the three of them there the entire

weekend of the visit?"

Fig "Yes."
0. "Were there any other school kids there?"
oo. "Ho,"

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0. "When they were at the ranch, from what ne told

vou, did Maxwell say anything to he about massages?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Did she say anything about -- to her about foot
massages?”

A. "Yes,"

2. "What did ne tell vou about that?"

Ih. "Maxwell told ne to give Epstein a foot massage

and then showed her and instructed her on how to do it.

ne was a little uncomfortable, but Maxwell was joking

around so she just followed her lead."

io. "Did le tell you what Maxwell and
Epstein -- took her to the movies that weekend?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "What did she tell you about that trip to the
movies?"

Ih. "She said that when they went cutside the theatre

Maxwell was Joking around and pulled Epstein's pants down a
little bit. And then once they went inside the theatre,
Epstein, when they were sitting down, touched Bl: leg,
and rubbed her arm, held her hand. And that this time
he -- le felt -- he wasn't trying to hide it from
Maxwell.

0. "What was CE reaction to all of this?"

oh. "Che was uncomfortable. ™

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Qo. "During the same weekend was there another

occasion when Maxwell talked about massages?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "What happened?"

A, "Maxwell had asked le if she had ever had a
massage, and Maxwell told her she could give her one. So

ne was on her back, and Maxwell pulled the sheet down
exposing her chest; she was nude from the top up and
proceeded to massage around her chest and breast area.”

0. "From what le told you when she was describing
to you what you just described to the grand jury, how did
she feel while this was happening?"

Fa "She felt really uncomfortable."

0. "Did le also tell vou about an incident that

happened one morning when she was in New Mexico?"

bh. "Yes."

2. "What did she tell you happened?"

Ih. "She said that she was in bed, and Epstein came
into the room and told her that he wanted to cuddle. 3o he
laid down next to her and spooned her. She told him that

she had to go to the bathroom to get out of the situation.”
io. "What was her reaction to that, when Epstein got
into her bed?"
A, "She felt uncomfortable. She didn't know what to

Ao.

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Qo. "Did ne go back home to ne when the
weekend was over?"

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "Did she tell anyone, when she got home, about
what had happened?"

A. "No."

2. "Is that for the same reason you described
earlier?"

A. "Yes."

0. "Did Epstein end up paying for le to go on a
trip to Thailand that summer?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Did le have any contact with Maxwell or
Epstein after that trip?"

A, "Not that she recalled.”

0. "When you interviewed | what was her demeanor
like when she described her interactions with
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?"

A, "She became upset and emotional.”

Qo. "Is le currently pursuing a civil lawsuit

against Maxwell and Epstein's estate?"

o. "Yes, she is."

0. "What does Be do for a living now?"

A. "She's a psychologist who works with trauma
victims."

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Qo. "During the course of this investigation have you
Fa) "Yes."
io. "For today's purposes I'm just going to refer to

her as | How many times have you interviewed
Ck approximately?"

Ih. "Approximately three times."

0. "Turning to the next slide. Is this a photograph
of ne that she provided to you?"

A "Yes."

Qo. "And did she tell you that this was taken when she
was in —- oxima y 16 or 17 ; old?’
was in approximately 16 1 ears old?"

fF: "Yeo Ld

Fi "Yes Ie

2. "Did ne grow up in England?"

o. "Yes, she did."

0. "Did she tell you that there came a point where

she met Ghislaine Maxwell when she was about 1772"

"Yeo,"

™

io. "How did she tell you that they met?"
Fa "She said they met through a mutual friend."
2. "Did she tell you that this would have happened in
around 19%4 or 1598572"
A. "Yes,"
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Qo. "And is that within the same time period that
we've been talking about today?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "What happened after she was introduced to
Ghislaine Maxwell, from what she told you?"

A. "She said Maxwell treated her like they were
sisters. Her quote was 'like naughty school girls' is how
Maxwell treated with her."

o. "Did she tell you that Maxwell seemed to
immediately take an interest in her?"

A. "Yes."

io. "Did she tell you that they began spending time
together in London?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "And just to be clear was Maxwell in her thirties
while this is happening?"

bh. "Yes."

0. "Did Maxwell -- did a ever remember Maxwell
ever talking about having a boyfriend named

Jeffrey Epstein?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "What did she tell ne about that?"

A. "Maxwell told ne that Epstein was going to
like her.”

0. "Did there come a time when she was 17 that

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ne described that Maxwell introduced her to

Jeffrey Epstein?"

A "Yes."
io. "How did she describe that occurring?"
Fa "Epstein had flown into London. He was at

Maxwell's residence in London, and Maxwell had called
ne over. So ne went over, and when she got there
Maxwell was saying to Epstein, kind of -- the words le
used was -- giving him a resume of her attributes, saying,
she's so pretty, she's so strong; and then Maxwell asked her
to give Epstein a massage."

io. "Now vou've testified just a moment ago that
Maxwell -- that ne described to you that Maxwell asked
her to give Epstein a massage during this first meeting, 1s
that correct?"

bh. "Yes."

0. "Did Maxwell state to her, in sum and substance,
since you're so strong, I'd appreciate it if you'd give
Jeffrey a massage because he needs a massage every day or I

get in trouble?"

o. "Yes, she said that.”

0. "Ts that what he said to you, in sum and
substance?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "When that happened did he remember Maxwell

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leading her to a room in the house?"

A. "Yes."

0. "When ne went 1n the room -- oh excuse me —-
what happened?"

A. "When a went in the room Epstein was in a
robe. He took off his robe, and she started massaging him.
And then he touched ne and pulled her hand to his
penis."

Q. "What does I remember Epstein saying when he

did this?"
A. "Don't be frigid."
RQ. "What was her reaction to this happening, from

what she told you?"

A. "She was taken back by it."

Q. "When this episode ended and Be left the
room, did she tell that she remembered Maxwell being just
outside the room when she left?"

A. "Yes."

Q. "Did she remember Maxwell saying to her, did you
have fun? Did he like it?"

A. "Yas."

0. "Does she remember Maxwell calling her several
days afterwards, or at some short period of time
afterwards?"

A. "Yes, she did."

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Qo. "Did ne remember Maxwell saying to her on the

phone call, in sum and substance, well, aren't you a clever

girl, Jeffrey was very impressed?"
A. "Yes."
io. "Shortly after this incident does she remember
Maxwell asking her to come back over to the house?"

ho. "Yes."

0. "And when she got there did she tell you she
thank God

remembered Maxwell saving to her, in substance,

you're here, if it's not you or someone else it falls to

me?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Does she remember Maxwell bringing her up the
stairs to the house on that occasion?"

In. "Yes, she did."

2. "What does she remember happening when Maxwell
opened the door to the room?"

Ih. "Epstein was standing there nude.™

o. "Does she remember Maxwell then saving, I'll leave
you guys to it?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "After these first two encounters, did Epstein and

Maxwell invite to travel with them to

Falm Beach, U.S. Virgin Islands, Paris, and New York, for

the next several

years?h

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A, "Yes, they did."

Qo. "Does she remember whether these trips began
pefore or after her 18th birthday?"

Fa "She couldn't remember specifically."

io. "Before these trips started, you were describing
earlier when he told you about the time she spent with
Maxwell when they first met, when she was 17, is that right?

bh. "Yes."

o. "During these conversations when she would spend
time with Maxwell, did ne remempoer talking with her
about her life, and her family, and her personal
circumstances, with Maxwell?"

A. "Yes."

2. "Now vou testified a moment age that he told
vou that at some point she began travelling with Maxwell and
Epstein, and she wasn't sure whether or not these trips
started before she turned 18, is that right?"

bh. "Yes."

o. "Did he describe to you that Epstein sexually
abused her during these trips, typically in the context of a

sexualized massage?"

o. "Yes, he did."

2. "Did Epstein give her money?"

A. "Yes."

oe "Did she tell you that he would give her cash?"

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A. "Yes."
0. "Did she describe to vou that the abuse included,

among other things, Epstein groping her and using a massager

device on her genitals?"

Lb. "Yes,"

0. "And was the massager device like a vibrator?"
o. "Yes, 1t was."

0. "From what Be told you, was Maxwell in the

room during these encounters?”

on. "Maxwell wasn't in the room.™

Qo. "What did she tell you would typically happen when

a left the room after these episodes; was Maxwell

typically nearby?"

A. "Yes. She was usually right near the room."

0. "Does she remember Maxwell asking her, after she'd
leave the room from one of these sessions, how was it; 1s he
happy?"

bo. "Yes."

o. "Did she also tell you that she remembers Maxwell

telling her at some point, in sum and substance, you know
how he is when he's not happy, and you know what makes him

happy; he has to have sex all the time; he's like a super

hero?"

In. "Yes, she said that."

0. "Did ne tell vou about an incident that

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occurred, after she turned 18, in Palm Beach when she was
staying at the Palm Beach house?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Did the incident she described to you involve a
school-girl outfit?"

A, "Yes, 1t did."

2. "Could you please describe for the grand jury what
ne told you about that incident?"

A, ne said that Maxwell had shown her a bedroom
and upon the bed was a school-girl outfit. Maxwell had told
her -- when he confronted her about it -- and Maxwell
said, well, I thought it would be adorable if you gave
Jeffrey his tea in this; so he felt like she had to put
it on. and so she put it on, took Epstein his tea, and
Epstein then slapped her on the buttocks and reached under
the skirt and touched her."

0. "What was her demeanor like when she described
this incident to you?"

A, "She was crying. She was very upset."

Qo. "When he described seeing the school-girl
outfit and talking to Maxwell about it, did she remember
Maxwell telling her, don't be so frigid?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "Does she remember that later in the day, after

she had delivered Epstein his tea and he assaulted her, does

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she remember Maxwell telling her, I heard you did well?"

A. "Yes."

io. "During the years that ne was in contact with
Maxwell and Epstein, did she remember whether Maxwell had

ever asked her 1f she knew any other girls who could massage

Epstein?"
bh. "Yes."
0. "Does she remember Maxwell saying, in sum and

substance, do you know anyone who could give him a blowjob

today, I don't feel like it?"
A. "Yes."
io. "Does she remember Maxwell saving, when she asked

her to bring other girls, that they have to look young at

least?"
n., "Yes,"
0. "From your conversations with | did she

tell you whether or not she ever brought any other girls?"
Ih. TR didn't bring any girls."
o. "Did she tell you why not?"
A, "She didn't want anyone else to go through that.”
0. "From your interviews with | did she tell
vou that there came a time, when she was in her early
twenties, when she stopped travelling with Maxwell and
Epstein?"

A. "Yes."

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Qo. "Was she struggling with substance abuse at that
point?”

o. "Yes, she was."

io. "Did she tell you that she got sober in her
twenties?"

In. "Yes, she did."

2. "What is her current profession?"

Ih. "She runs a non-profit for people who struggle

with addiction and trauma."

0. "Did he provide you with several emails that

she exchanged with Epstein in the early 2000s?"

o. "Yes, she did."

io. "And were those emails very friendly in tone?"

In. "Yes, they were."

2. "What did she say to vou when you talked with her

about those emails?"

o. "She said she didn't, at the time, want to
acknowledge what was going on to her. That looking
back -— on -- it's different.”

Qo. "Did your sguad at the FBI execute a search

warrant at Jeffrey Epstein's townhouse in Manhattan in July

of 20157"
A, "Yes."
2. "Did vou personally participate in the search of

Epstein's residence?"

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A. "Yes, I did."

Qo. "Did the townhouse include a massage room?"

A. "Yes,"

io. "Have you yourself been in that massage room?"

o. "Yes, I have."

2. "Could vou please describe for the grand jury what

—-

that massage room looked like?"

Ih. "It was dark. It had dark draperies covering the
windows. There was a massage table; there were oils, there
was a handheld massager in there; along with handcuffs, a
whip, and along with -- walls were nude photographs of young

females."

io. "I believe you testified a moment ago that he

I told you that there was a time when Maxwell

asked her to wear a school-girl outfit for Epstein when they
were in Palm Beach. Did you find a schocl-girl cutfit in

Epstein's New York townhouse?"

In. "Yes, we did."

o. "Where did vou find it?"

A, "It was found in a room next to the massage room."
io. "And to be clear did the FBI find sex toys during

the search?"

A. "Yes,"
0. "What was found?"
In. "Butt plugs, dildo, and vibrators."

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Qo. "We've talked about three minor girls today;
Fa) "Yes,"
io. "Have you reviewed the proposed indictment marked

Grand Jury Exhibit 172"

In. "Yes, I have."

0. "Is the individual referred to as Victim 1
in the proposed indictment?"

A. "Yes,"

Victim 2

Hy]

0. "Is le the individual referred to a
in the proposed indictment?"

A. "Yes,"

0. "Ts he the individual referred to as Victim 3
in the indictment?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "During all of Maxwell's interactions with the
victims when they were underage girls, based on the
timeframe and your knowledge of Maxwell's birthdate, was she
in her thirties?"

L. "Yes, she was."

io. "Just one moment. All right. Switching gears.
Have vou become aware that in or about 2016 Maxwell gave
sworn testimony in a civil deposition in connection with a
lawsuit?"

A. "Yes,"

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1 Q. "Could you please explain for the grand jury, what

[~a

1s a deposition?"

3 A. "It 1s a statement made under oath."
4 Q. "And in the course of civil litigation is it
3 common for witnesses or parties of the lawsuit to give a

6 deposition, under cath, where they testify about the

I) substance of the case?"

8 A. lh i=

9 Q. "And is deposition testimony live, and in-person,
10 and under oath?"

11 A. "Yes."

2 RQ. "Is a court reporter present when a deposition

13 takes place?”

14 A. "Yes."

15 Q. "Now before we talk about Maxwell's deposition

16 testimony, I want to talk to you about the lawsult that the

17 testimony was about. Have you become aware that in or about
18 2015 an individual named a filed a lawsuit

19 against Ghislaine Maxwell here in the Southern District of
20 New York?"

21 A. "Yes."

22 0. "And was he suing Maxwell for defamation?"

73 A. "Yes, she was."

24 0. "Was the lawsuit captioned I

25 against Ghislaine Maxwell, the docket number 15CB 7433, here

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in the Southern District of New York?"

A. "Yes."

io. "Generally speaking, in broader strokes, what was
the lawsuit about; what was the claim that ne was
pringing against Maxwell?"

WITNESS. I'm sorry. What line are we on again?

MS. ne Page 68, line 4.
WITNESS. had stated that she had been

sexually abused by Epstein and Maxwell as a minor. Maxwell
came forward publically and called her a liar, so he
sued her for defamation."
BY MS. ne

io. "So just a small legal instruction on this topic.
Ladies and gentlemen, I instruct you that the allegations in
the lawsuit are not being presented to you as evidence that
those incidents occurred. I instruct you that you should
not consider those allegations for their truth. Instead,
the circumstances of the lawsuit are being presented to you
so that vou can consider the context of the case and the
circumstances under which Maxwell made statements under
oath. Turning back to the deposition, did Maxwell's
deposition take place over two different days?"

A. "Yes,"

2. "On both days does she give testimony in

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L. "Yes, she did."

Qo. "Iz that where the deposition took place?”

A, "Yes."

io. "And on both days was Maxwell sworn under oath?"
A, "Yes."

2. "If you could flip through the remaining slides of

the presentation, do those slides contain true and accurate
excerpts of the transcript of that deposition?"

A. "Yes."

0. "Turning to the next slide, is this the cover page
of the transcript of the first deposition that took place on

April 22, 201672"

Fa "Yes,"

0. "And does it have the case caption on it?"

In. "Yes, 1t does."

2. "Turning to the next slide. Is this an excerpt

from the transcript?"

Ih. "Yes,"

o. "I imagine the grand jurors can't read it from
their seats so 1f you could read it with me, I'll read the
questions, and if vou could read the answers."

"'Did Jeffrey Epstein have a scheme to recruit
underage girls for underage massages?'"

And it appears there was an objection

from the lawyer.

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darnswer -

Q.

participated in sexualized massages with Epstein and

Maxwell,

J.

Maxwell -- that ] told vou that Maxwell

asked her to give Epstein massages when she was a minor?"

Q.

this another excerpt from that same deposition?"

2.

read the answer."

vou've interacted at with, at any of Jeffrey Epstein's

properties?!"

"'If you know,'"

"'T don't know what you are talking about.'"
"Just to be clear, was the question and

1s the answer here Maxwell's testimony?"

"Yes,"

"Just to be clear vou testified earlier that Be

iz that right?"

"Yes."

"And le was a minor when that occurred?”
"Yes,"

"And did you also testify earlier that

"Veg,"

"If you could turn to the next slide please. Is

"Yes, 1t is."

"All right. I'll read the question and you can

"'Was all the people, under the age of 18 that

"'I'm not aware of anvbody that I interacted with,

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other than, obviously, ne who was 17 at this point.'"™

0. "Just to be clear, you testified earlier about two
girls under the age of 18 who interacted with Maxwell at
Epstein's properties, is that correct?"

A "Yes."

0. "And those individuals were a and ne
ne who told you that, correct?"

In. "Yes, that's correct."

o. "Turning to the next slide. Is this the cover
page of the transcript from the deposition that took place
on July 22, 20167"

A. "Yes."

io. "And again, was this Maxwell giving testimony as

a
unl
(
rt

of the testimony under cath here in Manhattan?"

A "Yes."
2. "If you could please turn to the next slide. Is
that an excerpt -- are these two excerpts from that

deposition?"
A. "Yes."
Qo. "Again, I'll read the questions, if you could
please read the answers."
"'Were you aware of the presence of sex toys or
devices used in sexual activities in Mr. Epstein's

Palm Beach house?'"™

MS. There is an objection from the

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awyer.
WITHESS. "No, no. Not that I recall.'"”
BY MS. a
io. "'Do vou know whether Mr. Epstein possessed sex

toys or devices used in sexual activities?'™

MS. ne There's an cbjection from the lawyer.

WITNESS. "Io,"
2. "Just to be clear you testified earlier that

BN Be told you he found sex toys and a massager in

Palm Beach and also that he had seen Maxwell had a basket of

sex toys in her closet there, is that correct?"

o. "Yes, that's correct."

0. "And is it correct you testified earlier that
Epstein used a vibrator on Ck is that correct?”

o. "Yes, that's correct."

2. "And did you also testify earlier that
ne told you he did that as well?"

n. "Yes, that's correct.”

Q. "And did you also testify earlier that sex toys

were found by the police in the Palm Beach house in 2005, is

that right?"
A. "Yes."
2. "And did you also testify earlier that the FBI

found sex toys in Epstein's New York City townhouse in

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201972"

L. "Yes, that's correct."

io. "If you could please turn to the next slide. This
is on Page 27. It says, are these also excerpts from that

same deposition?"

A, "Yes."

2. "Again, I'll read the guesticons if you could
please read the answers."

0. "'Other than yourself, and the blonde and brunette
that vou have identified as having been involved in
three-way sexual activities, with whom did Mr. Epstein have
sexual activities?'"™

MS. he There's an cbjection from the lawyer.

WITNESS. "'T wasn't aware that he was having
sexual activities with anyone when I was with him, other
than myself."

0. "'T want to be sure that I'm clear. Is it your

testimony that in the 19%30=z and 2000s vou were not aware
that Mr. Epstein was having sexual activities with anyone
other than yourself and the blonde and brunette on those few

occasions when they were involved with you?'"

A. "'That is my testimony. That is correct.'"”
2. "Have you reviewed the deposition transcript?”
A, "Yes."

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Qo. "In full? Now the excerpt we just read has the
reference to a blonde and a brunette. Are those individuals
completely different from the individuals we've been talking
about today?"

A. "Yes."

0. "Just to be clear, is it correct that vou
testified earlier that ne and ne told you that
Epstein sexually abused them repeatedly, 1s that correct?"

A. "Yes."

0. "And did you also testify earlier that Maxwell was
occasionally present when Epstein was abusing | passed
on what she told you?"

o. "Yes, that's correct."

0. "Turning to the next slide. Is this also an

excerpt from the same deposition?"

Ih. "I'm sorry?"
2. "I'm so sorry. Turning to the next slide, on
Fage 28. Is this also an excerpt from the same deposition?®
A. "Yes."
Qo. "Thank you. Okay. Again, if we could read that
together. I'll take the question and vou can take the

answer,"
2. "'Let's just tie that down. Is it your testimony
that vyvou'wve never given anybody a massage?'™

A. "'I've not given anyone a massage.'"

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Qo. "'You never gave Mr. Epstein a massage? Is that
your testimony?'"

- [TI] - LE I. = a rm

A. That is my testimony.

io. "'You never gave a a massage? Is that

your testimony?'"

0. "Just to be clear, as you testified earlier, is it

correct that a told vou that Maxwell gave her a

massage when they were in New Mexico?"

pa) "Yes,"
MS. ne We're going to stop the read back
there. Ladies and gentlemen, let's take a five minute break

p=

and we'll come back to finish the presentation in about five
minutes. With the Foreperson's permission, I will ask that
the witness please be excused.

FOREPERSON. Yes, he may.

Thank you.

Witness Temporarily Excused)
(Time noted: 11:21 a.m.)

(Recess taken)

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(Colloguy Precedes)
(Witness Resumes)
(Time MNoted: 11:34 a.m.)
BY MS. ne

0. Welcome back, Detective.

A. Thank you.

2. I have placed in front of you what has been marked
as Grand Jury Exhibit 5. Do you recognize that?

A. I do.

0. Is this a PowerPoint presentation concerning some

of the facts and evidence that vou have gathered in your

investigation?
A. Yes.
2. Did you participate in preparing this Exhibit in

connection with your testimony today?

A. Yes.

2. Will it assist you in testifying today?

A. Yes.

o. Then we're going to have it up on the screen and
we'll use it as you testify. During the course of this

investigation have you participated in multiple interviews
with an individual named BE

A. Yes,

2. Did those interviews take place in the year 2020

and the year 20217

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Were there approximately five of those interviews
3 in total?

4 A. Yes.

a Q. For today's purposes I'm going to refer to her as

© Have you also reviewed reports from other law

i) enforcement interviews for ne

8 A. ies.

9 Q. And is your testimony today based on both the

10 review of those reports and your personal participation in
11 interviews with he

2 A. Tes.

13 Q. Turning to the next slide. Are these photographs
13 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did me tell you approximately how old she was

17 in one of these photographs?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which photograph did she identify?

20 A. The one on the right.

21 Q. Where 1s the one on the right from, according to
23 A. Oh, I'm sorry. That was from her MySpace page.

24 0. And about how old did he recall being in this
25 photograph from her MySpace page?

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I 03/29/2021 81
A. Sixteen years old.
0. What 1s ne date of birth?
Q. Where was me living when she was about 14
vears old?
A. West Palm Beach, Florida.

Q. What was ne home life like when she was 14

years old?

A. It was troubled. She grew up -- she had been
molested multiple times as a child. Her mother was addicted
to drugs and alcohol. Her parents were separated, she often

fought with her brother and her mother.

Q. When a was 14 years old, did she have a
boyfriend?

A. Yes.

0. What was his name?

Q. How old was a when they were dating
when he was 14 years old?

A. Approximately 17.
Q. So was es about three years older than I
A. Yes.

0. Did there come a time when I learned of and

met Jeffrey Epstein?

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ee 03/29/2021 82
Q. According to he how did that happen?

A. Her boyfriend I was friends with someone named

Ec eo ee ceo

The four of them would often hang out together.

On one particular occasion he was asked by them and
if she would like to make some money by massaging

an older man.

Q. How did me respond?

A. She agreed to do it.

0. About what year does Be remember this

conversation taking place?

A. 2001.

0. So how old was ne at that time?

A. Fourteen.

Q. During your investigation have you learned of
a date of birth?

A. Yes.

0. How old was a at the time of the

conversation with he in 2001, about massaging an old
guy?

A. Seventeen.

0. After that conversation with ne did I
meet Epstein?

A. Tes.

Q. What did ne remember happening the first time

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she met Epstein?

A. She was brought there by ee She recalls
going in through the side door and being introduced to
Maxwell as they entered.

Q. Based on her interactions with Maxwell, as she and
entered, what was he understanding of
whether and Maxwell had met before?

A. She understood that they had met before.

Q. And did Maxwell, in substance, tell ne to
show he what to do?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. They went upstairs to the massage room. They set
up the massage room, waited for Epstein to enter. At that
point they participated in giving him a massage.

Q. How did ne describe the massage room in the
Florida house?

A. She described it as having a few doors inside of
it, some of them entering a closet. She described there
being a -- it's like a bathroom, basically, that had a sink
inside of it. And inside of the closet had a massage table
which they had to take out in order to set it up.

Q. What, if any, photographs did ne recall
seeing in and around the massage room?

A. She recalls nude photographs of Maxwell.

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1 Q. And of other females?

[~a

A. Yes.

3 Q. After ne and ne had set up the massage

4 table, what happened next?

5 A. Jeffrey Epstein came into the room; they massaged
6 him. At some point during the massage he turned over and

7 ne got on top. They had sex, and ne sat on the
8 couch and tried not to watch.

9 Q. According to he did and

10 Jeffrey Epstein engage in sexual intercourse during that

11 massage?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. At the end of the massage what happened?

14 A. Jeffrey left, they got dressed, and each got paid,

15 and they walked downstairs. They got paid $300 each.

16 Q. So to clarify, did he and ne each

17 receive $3007?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And how did they receive that money; in what

20 denomination?

21 A. Crisp one hundred dollar bills.

22 Q. After that first visit did I go to Epstein's
23 Palm Beach residence on multiple occasions to provide

24 sexualized massages to Jeffrey Epstein between 2001 and

2D 20047?

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1 A. Yes.

[~a

Q. Approximately how many times does estimate
3 she massaged Jeffrey Epstein?

4 A. About one hundred times.

5 5. Do memories of the events at Epstein's

6 residence run together after that first visit with he
I) A. Yes.

8 Q. At some point after her first or second visit to

9 Epstein's residence, did he give her phone number to

10 someone at Epstein's house?

11 A. Yes.

2 Q. After that did ne go to Epstein's house by
13 herself without I accompanying her?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. After ne provided her phone number, how did

16 she schedule times to massage Epstein at his house?
17 A. She would either call herself or she would receive

18 a phone call.

19 0. Did he explain why she would call herself to
20 ask to schedule a time to massage Epstein?

21 A. Yes. At the time she wanted to make more money so
22 she could buy drugs.

23 Q. During her time seeing Epstein did he become
24 addicted to certain drugs?

23 A. Yes.

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Qo. What drugs was she primarily using?
A, Cocaine and marijuana.

0. When someone would call he to schedule her
for massages with Epstein, who does ne remember making
those calls?

2. And were there particular time periods, over the

course of the years when he was interacting with

Epstein, that one or the other of those two individuals

would call?

A. Yes.
io. What did ne say about that?
bh. She recalled that for the first several months of

going to Epstein she would get calls primarily from Maxwell.
After that, she would receive calls primarily from BR
put at the same time, occasionally receiving calls from
Maxwell.

0. And did she also remember receiving calls from

other Epstein employees whose names ne did not know?

A. Yes.

0. Did he refer to Maxwell as Maxwell?

A. Yes.

2. And then you mentioned another person; what was

the other person's name?

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1 Q. And did she primarily refer to BB -- did

2 Be primarily refer to a as Bl:

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Who was  k according to ne

= A. She was another employee of Epstein's. She was an
© assistant who made phone calls, arranged massage

7 appointments, and took photographs.

8 Q. When Maxwell would call Be to schedule

9 massage appointments with Epstein, did Maxwell ever tell

10 Be where Maxwell was calling from?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What did ne remember about that?

13 A. She recalls her saying that they were in New York,

14 and that they would be travelling to Florida at a certain

15 time period and asking if she would be available for that

16 time when they return.

17 Q. And when you say "they" would be in New York, who
18 was a referring to?

19 A. Epstein and Maxwell.

20 0. So did he understand from these conversations

21 that Maxwell and Epstein, at the time of those phone calls,

22 were in New York?
23 A. Yes.
24 0. What phone numbers would Epstein's employees call

25 to schedule appointments for ne to massage Epstein?

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1 A. They would call multiple phone numbers, including

I cell phone, her mother's phone, her landline, or

3 her home line, and her boyfriend Bl: phone.

[~a

4 Q. How did ne get to Epstein's residence for
| each massage appointment?
6 A. She would either be driven by her boyfriend; she

7 would drive herself on occaslon even though she did not have
8 || a license; she had been driven there by I and also

49 Epstein or Maxwell would send him -- send her a cab -- to be

10 picked up.

11 Q. Did es boyfriend Be ever meet anyone at

12 Epstein's house?

13 A. ies.

14 0. What did Ie remember about that?

15 A. She recalls that he met Epstein.

16 0. What did she say about that?

17 A. He met in the driveway. There was a car that

18 Epstein was driving at the time and that he was showing to
19 BB And she recalls that Be really liked the car, and
20 she had to hear about him talking about the car for several

21 days to weeks after that.

22 Q. According to ne did ln ever meet any of

73 Epstein's employees?
24 A. No.
25 Q. When ne arrived at Epstein's house for each

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appointment, what happened when she first arrived?

A, She would arrive through the side door and
generally be greeted by somecne.

0. Would that be in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

0. Does she recall, at times, Maxwell being the
person who would greet her in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

o. After being greeted in the kitchen, what wou

A, She would go upstairs and arrange the massag

and the massage table.

0. Once ne was in the massage room, what

happened during each appointment?

A. Epstein would generally come out, he would g

the table. She would begin her massage. During the massage

he would flip over and she would generally play with

nipples. He would masturbate, he would touch her brea

and buttocks, and she said that every instance ended with

Epstein ejaculating.

io. What would he be wearing during these

appointments?

A. At first she just started wearing her underwear

put was told that she would make more money to be completely

nude, 30 she started getting totally nude.

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Q. And so after her first few visits to Epstein’'s,

was she —- did it become en practice to be fully nude

during the massages?

A. Yes.

0. On a few occasions during these massages did
Epstein touch he vagina?

A. Yes.

Q. On one occasion does Ie recall Epstein

touching her vagina with a vibrator?
A. Tes.
Q. And you mentioned that I recalled each

massage ended with Epstein ejaculating; so is it ne

recollection that every single massage she performed for
Epstein involved a sex act?

A. Tes.

6d. After each massage, what happened?

A. Epstein would get up, he would get dressed;
she would get paid. The money would generally be on the
table or on the sink, or she would go downstairs and be paid

by Maxwell.

0. How much did me recall being paid for each

massage?
A. Three hundred dollars.
0. In what denomination?

A. One hundred dollar bills.

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Q. You mentioned that ne would sometimes be
greeted by Maxwell when she arrived at Epstein's house.
Earlier on 1n her visits to Epstein’'s, would Maxwell engage
ne in conversation?

A. ies.

Q. And then later on, after Be started primarily
being the person to schedule these appointments, would
Maxwell still be present sometimes?

A. Yes.

Q. But during those later periods would Maxwell
primarily just say hello and not really have extended

conversations with I

A. ies.

Q. During the earlier period when a was going
over to Epstein's Palm Beach house, what types of
conversations does she recall having with Maxwell?

A. She talked with Maxwell about her home life. She
talked with Maxwell about her abuse that occurred when she
was younger. She recalled Maxwell asking about her sexual
experiences that she's had. She recalled Maxwell asking her
1f she used a vibrator or a toy ever on herself.

Q. Did she also recall conversations about travel?

A. Tes.

0. I'd like to go through each of those topics that

ne recalled discussing. First, what did I tell

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Maxwell about he home life in response to Maxwell's
questions?
A. She told her that she -- her mother was addicted

to drugs and that she had been molested several times as a

child.

OQ. Did she also tell Maxwell that the parents were
separated?

A. Yes.

Q. You also mentioned sexual topics coming up. What

does ne recall about the time or times when sexual
topics came up with Maxwell?

A. Maxwell has asked her if she was sexually active.
ne had told her that she's currently sexually active
with her boyfriend. Maxwell asked her if she'd ever used a
toy to pleasure herself, and she had said no.

Q. Did Be recall that, the same day that Maxwell
asked about whether she ever used a toy, was the day that
Epstein placed a vibrator on ne genitals during the
massage?

A. Tes.

Q. What did ne recall about conversations with
Maxwell about travel?

A. She recalls that on multiple occasions Maxwell
asked her if she wanted to travel, specifically, overseas.

She had told her that she was 14 years old and that her

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mother wouldn't let her. Maxwell offered to get her a
passport so she would be able to travel.

io. When vou said "she had told her that she was
14 years old," did you mean that he told Maxwell that
ne was 14 years old?

A. Yes.

0. Does ne recall that these conversations tock
place when she was about 14 years old?

A. Yes.

0. Does ne recall Maxwell saying specifically

where Maxwell wanted he to travel with Epstein?

A. No.

io. Did Epstein ever invite he to travel with

him?

Lo. Yes.

0. What did Be remember about that?

Ih. They were similar conversations where she had
told -- he had asked her if she would like to travel and
said that a had also travelled with him. She
had told him that she was 14 and, likely, her mother

wouldn't let her travel. He had also cffered to get her a
passport.

0. Did ne ever actually travel with Maxwell or

Epstein?
A. No.

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Q. After ne told Maxwell and Epstein that she
was 14 years old, did Maxwell still call her to schedule
massage appointments for Epstein?

A. Yes.

0. Did he st1l]l see Maxwell at the Palm Beach

residence after telling Maxwell that she was 14 years old?

A. Yes.
0. Did Maxwell ever see me naked?
A. Yes,

0. In particular does he recall that there were

between one and three times when Maxwell saw her naked?

A. Yes.

Q. How did that happen, according to he

A. It happened in the massage room.

0. And was there one time, in particular, when
ne recalls Maxwell touching her while ne was
naked?

A. ies.

0. What did he remember about that?

A. She recalls being in the massage room undressing;

Maxwell complimented her body and then asked 1f her breasts

were real, at which point, she touched her breasts.

0. And when you say "she touched her breasts," do you
mean Maxwell touched I breasts?
A. Yes.

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0. And on those occasions, just to be clear,
according to why was she getting undressed in the
massage room when Maxwell was present?

Fa For getting prepared for the massage with
Jeffrey Epstein.

0. Other than during her first visit or two with

ne did ne ever participate in massages with

Epstein during which another female was in the room?

0. In particular does she recall two occasions when

Epstein brought another girl into the room?

A. Yes,

io. Would you please describe for the grand jury what
ne recalled about one such occasion?

A. She recalled that the girl looked like a model.

She recalls at one point during the massage Jeffrey Epstein
attempted to have sex with her; he slightly penetrated her
at least once or twice, that she can recall; she teld him

no, at which point he began to have sex with the other

female and at the same time she was performing oral on
io. Mow just to clarify some of the pronouns there.

You said that Epstein attempted to penetrate, or have sexual

intercourse, with her; do you mean that ne recalls that

Epstein attempted to penetrate ne vagina with his

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penis?

A. Yes.

io. Does ne recall Epstein attempting to do that
and actually inserting his penis into her vagina on one or

two occasions?

A. Yes.

2. And in response, did ne say no?

A. Yes.

o. And in response to that did Epstein then engage in

sexual intercourse with the other girl?

A. Yes.

io. And at the same time was the other girl performing
oral sex on ne

A. Yes,

2. Was there another instance where Epstein brought a

different girl into the room?

A. Yes,

0. What did he remember happening during that
other instance?

A, Similar instance where Epstein would have sex with
the other female at the same time while she was performing

0. So Epstein would have intercourse with the other

girl and the other girl would perform coral sex on he

A. Yes.

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Qo. Did ne ever bring other girls to massage

A. Yes.

io. Why did she do that?

Fa She was told she could earn more money.

0. Who told her, or asked her, to bring other girls?
Ih. Both Jeffrey and Maxwell,

0. What, in particular, did they ask her to do?

A, They asked if she could bring younger girls.

0. Did ne in fact, bring multiple girls over to

Epstein's house?
A. Yes.
io. Can she remember the name of every girl that she

orought over?

A. No.

2. Are there some examples of names that she
remembers of girls that he brought over?

A. Yes.

o. What are some examples?

io. According to I Was le younger than

A. Yes,

2. And according to ne Was he about a year
older than ne

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receiving

Victoria's

Yes.

When he prought these girls would Epstein
sex acts, in the presence of both he and the
had brought, during the massage?

Yes.

After each massage would both he and the girl

Yes.
How much did ne remember them getting paid?
Three hundred dollars.

So did each, ne and the girl, get $3007

Yes.

What's an example of some gifts that she remembers
from Epstein?

Flowers, a book called "Massage for Dummies," and
Secret underwear.

Does she recall receiving multiple packages of
Secret lingerie?

Yes.

Before she first received Victoria's Secret

did Maxwell ask her for her address and her bra

Yes.

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2.

How does le remember receiving packages of

Victoria's Secret underwear?

Fo

She recalls receiving them at her house in West

Palm Beach.

J.

Fo

Q.

And how would they get to her house?

Either FedEx or UPS.

What, if anything, does ne remember about the

return address on those packages?

fo
York.

2.

address?

id.

massaging

She recalls that they stated they were from New
Does she remember whose name was on the return

She recalls Jeffrey's and Maxwell's name.

What did ne do with the money she made
Epstein?

She used it to purchase drugs.

Did she and her boyfriend then use those drugs?

Yes.

Did he continue going to school after she met

Jeffrey Epstein?

No.

About how old was she when she dropped out?
About 14.

Was she in middle school when she dropped out?

Yes.

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Qo. So did ne ever attend high school?

A. No.

io. In or about 2003 did he become pregnant with
her boyfriend Bl:

A. Yes.
2. Did he continue to massage Epstein after she
pecame pregnant, until she began showing her pregnancy?

A. Yes.

0. Did ne give birth to her son in 2004, when
ne was about 17 years old?

A. Yes.

0. After the birth of her son did he still

massage Epstein on a small number of occasions?

A. Yes.

0. What did ne tell you about that?

Ih. She was doing it to —-- excuse me -- support her
paby

0. Was that because she needed the money?

A. Yes.

Qo. Have you reviewed the proposed superseding

indictment marked Grand Jury Exhibit &7
Fa It's not in front of me right now, but I have
reviewed it.

2. Have vou reviewed the proposed superseding
indictment or would you like me to provide you with a copy?
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L. Yes, I reviewed it.

0. Is ne the individual referred to as
Minor Victim 4 in the proposed superseding indictment?

A. Yes.

io. Before you began investigating Epstein and his
associates was there a prior investigation by a different
FBI office in Florida into Jeffrey Epstein?

A. Yes.

o. Curing that investigation was ne interviewed

in 20077
A. Yes.
io. Have vou reviewed a report from that interview?
A. Yes.

0. During that interview did I describe

providing numerous pald sexualized massages to Epstein at
his Palm Beach residence when she was underage?

A. Yes,

0. Did he mention Maxwell at all during that
interview?

A. No.

io. During your more recent interviews with her in
2021 did ne explain why she did not mention Maxwell
during her 2007 interview?

A. Yes,

0. What did she say about that?

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that Maxw

She was not asked.

She was not asked about Maxwell?

Correct.

Did she think that Maxwell was important to the
in 20077

No.

Did ne sue Jeffrey Epstein in approximately

Yes.

Was she deposed, as part of that law suit, in

Yes.

Have vou reviewed a transcript of that deposition?
Yes,

During that deposition in 200% did ne state

ell was one of the people who would call her to

schedule massage appointments with Epstein?

Fx
iJ.
Maxwell,

that 2009

Yes.

Was he asked any other questions about

or any follow-up questions about Maxwell, during
deposition?

No.

After that deposition did the law suit settle?

Yes.

During her more recent interviews did ne

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admit that she lied during her 2009 deposition?

A. Yes.

0. And in particular, in her 2021 interviews did
ne tell you that after she stopped seeing Epstein she
pegan working for an escort service?

A. Yes,

0. During her 2021 interviews did ne admit that,
as part of that escort service, she engaged in paid sex acts
with men?

A. Yes.

Qo. Now, during her 200% deposition was he asked
about her time working for an escort service?

A. Yes.

2. Did she lie and claim that she had engaged in no

sex acts and only non-sexual dates as part of that escort

service?

bh. Yes.

0. Did she explain why she lied during her
deposition?

A. Yes.

io. What did she say about that?

Fa She was embarrassed.

0. Was she ashamed to admit that she had worked as a

prostitute, during her deposition?

A. Yes,

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Qo. Has ne struggled with drug addiction in the
years since her time with Epstein?

Fo Yes.

0. Did she, in particular, become addicted to cocaine
and crack cocaine?

Lo. Yes.

0. Was she also in a car crash after which she was

prescribed opioids?

A. Yes.
0. And did she become addicted to opioids?
A. Yes.

io. Between the ages of 18 and 26 was he arrested

and convicted, on multiple times including misdemeanors and
felonies, for crimes arising out of her drug use, such as
drug possession and traffic violations?

A. Yes,

2. Was her last felony an incident involving stolen
property when she pawned an Xbox that belonged to one of

Bl : friends?

A. Yes.

io. As a result of that conviction did ne spend
several weeks in jail?

A. Yes,

2. And was that the longest jail sentence she had

ever served?

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A. Yes.
Qo. After [ was released from that jail sentence
did she go into drug treatment and obtain mental health

treatment?

A. Yes.

2. Was that several years ago?

bh. Yes.

0. What does ne do now?

A, She's a stay-at-home mother.

0. Is she married?

A. Yes.

0. To someone other than  E

A. Yes.

2. Does she have three young children with her

current huskand?

Ab. Yeo,
0. Does he work while she takes care of the kids?
Ab. Yes,

0. Has he received treatment for depression,

anxiety, PTSD, and schizophrenia, among other mental health
issues?
A. Yes.

0. As for her schizophrenia, does that manifest in

ne hearing voices telling her that someone's going to

take her children away and hurt her children?

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0. Does he believe that that comes from a fear

that what happened to her as a child could happen to her
children?

A. Yes.

0. Is he able to tell the difference betwesan
those voices and reality?

A. Yes.

o. Does she take medication to help her not hear
those voices?

A. Yes.

io. Does ne currently take multiple medications
to help her manage her drug addiction and her mental health
issues?

A. Yes,

0. Do those include Methadone, Xanax, and medical
marijuana?

A. Yes.

0. Is ne currently, or has she ever, sued

Maxwell?

Fo No.

io. Does she have any plans to do so?

Lo. No.

0. Have vou identified evidence that corroborates

ne account of her time interacting with Epstein and

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Maxwell?

A. Yes.

0. Did you interview he ex-boyfriend,

0. What is the current nature of Be and he

relationship?

A. They have a child in common, and they talk very
minimally just because they have a child in common.

Q. So do they only speak when necessary to discuss
their teenage son?

A. Yes.

Q. According to a were he and ne

dating when I was about 14 years old and Shawn was

about 17 years old?

A. Yes.

Did - remember that he, he and

that time?

A. 1es.

Q. What di J. recall about how Be came to
meet Jeffrey Epstein?

A. He recalls that the four of them were hanging out,

and they had mentioned —- ee and he had mentioned

to them that ne could go to massage an old man and she

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would be paid money in return for that.
0. After that what does le remember happening?

A. He recalls that i went to Epstelin's house,

with to do the massage.
Q. Did Be recall bringing I to Epstein's

Palm Beach residence on multiple occasions?

A. Yes.

Q. Did es remember receiving phone calls to
schedule appointments for I to massage Epstein?

A. Yes.

0. What, if anything, did BE remember about
meeting Jeffrey Epstein?

A. He recalls meeting him at his house -- Epstein's
house; he recalls that Epstein was there with his car, and
he was showing off his car; he recalls that Epstein was
flashy.

Q. What, if anything, did Ie remember ne

saying about Maxwell?

A. He recalls that said Maxwell was rude and
nasty and that she was supposed to be teaching her how to do
massades.

Q. What did I remember doing with the money that

ne received from Epstein?
A. They purchased drugs; I and Ck
Q. he and Be would purchase drugs?

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A. Yes.

Qo. What did Be understand was happening when

he was at Epstein's Palm Beach residence?

Fa He understood that she was going in there to give

massages to Epstein but felt that there may have also been
something else going on.

2. What did Be remember about ne bringing
other girls to Epstein's residence?

A, He recalls that she had brought other girls.

0. Did he remember that both ne and the other
girls would get paid for going to Epstein's house?

A. Yes.

io. Turning to the next slide. During the prior
investigation into Epstein did the other FBI office obtain
certain Federal Express records regarding Epstein?

A. Yes,

2. Was there one in particular from Cctober of 2002
that is up on the slide right now?

A. Yes.

Qo. Would you please walk the grand jury through what
we see on this slide?

Fa Sure. On the left-hand side it says, picked up
CGctober 7th of 2002. The sender's address is on the bottom.
In the middle it says, Jeffrey E. Epstein; his address is

457 Madison Avenue, Mew York, Mew York. It was sent

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Ln

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Lad

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FN Yes

2 How cold was he on Cctober 7, 20027

FN Fifteen.

J Have you interviewed a man named BN ne
A. Yes,

i.
testimony from Special Agent Be earlier today?

L,

b. Yes,

0 Did ne recall meeting ne ne

Ln. Yes.

0 What did Be remember about how he first met

-

Fx

appointment at Mar-a-Lago. He

n in the 1990s and early 2000s at Epstein's Palm Beach

ET:
—

457

the

Madison Avenue address, is that in

Is that the same man about whom we read back

Yes.

To remind the grand jury, did BB ne work for

—-

=.

_—
—

ii]

He recalls driving Maxwell to massage

was told to wait in the car

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while she got her massage. When she was done she got in the
car and they started leaving the property. AL some point
during that drive, while still on the property, she was —--
asked him to stop. She got out of the car and approached a
female who was wearing a uniform at the time. Maxwell spoke
to that female for about 20 minutes, and Mr. ne could
not hear the conversation. Maxwell then got back in the car
and drove back to Epstein's house. Shortly thereafter,

later that day, that same girl arrived at the house. She

soon became a regular at the house, and he learned --

later learned -- her name to be ne ne
0. And when ne said that I ne became

a regular at the house, what was I understanding of

why ne ne was coming to Epstein's Palm Beach

residence

{1a

Ih. To give Epstein massages.
2. Turning to the next slide. Have you reviewed

flight records for Jeffrey Epstein's private jet?

A. Yes.
Qo. Do those show multiple flights that
I ne was on when she was under the age of 18?
A. Yes.
2. Was Maxwell present for some of those flights with

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Qo. Are two such flights reflected on this slide?
A. Yes.
io. I'd like to ask you to please walk the grand jury

through those two flight records.

Fa On December 11th and December 14th of Z000, vou
can see all the way at the bottom of the page, on the
left-hand side it's marked 11 and 14; the first flight goes
from PBI to Teterboro, which is Palm Beach in Florida and
Teterboro is in New Jersey. On that flight was Epstein,
Maxwell, and ne ne among others. The next
flight, on the 14th, goes from Teterboro to the

Virgin Islands. ©On that flight is Epstein, Maxwell,

I among others.
2. Based on your understanding of ne ne

date of birth, how old was ne on these two flights?

A. Seventeen.

2. Turning to the next slide. Dees this slide show
three additional flights that ne [| took with
Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell when she was 17 years
old?

A. Yes.

io. Would you please walk the grand jury through these
three flights?

A. Sure. The first flight is January 26, 2001. On
that flight is Jeffrey Epstein, Maxwell, and

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ne [| among others. That was from Teterboro to

Palm Beach.

Down a little bit further there's another date
that appears to be January Z8th of 2001, although the 8
seems like it's a little faded, but does appear to be late

January 2001. On that flight is Jeffrey Epstein,

Ghislaine Maxwell, and ne [| among others.

And the last flight is the 30th of January, also
2001; this flight's had Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell,
and ne ne on that flight.

Qo. Based on your review of flight records for
Jeffrey Epstein's private jet have you found multiple
additional flights in 2001 that ne he took with
Epstein and Maxwell when she was still 17 years old?

A. Yes.

2. Have vou reviewed certain phone records from the
year 20047

A. Yes.

o. Did those phone records show that on at least two
occasions in April and May of 2004 an employee of Epstein's
called ne phone number?

A. Yes.

2. Turning to the next slide. During the prior
investigation of Epstein was there a search executed at
Epstein's Palm Beach residence in 2005 by the Palm Beach

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Police Department?

A. Yes.

io. During that search did the police recover message
pads from the residence?

A. Yes.

2. Would vou please explain to the grand jury what
message pads are?

Ih. Sure. So message pads, in this particular
instance, were pads that Epstein kept next to each of his
phones in his residence. If someone was to call, whoever
would answer that phone would jot down a note as to who the
person was that was calling, who they were asking for, the
time and date, and their phone numbers, and any specific
message they wanted to leave.

2. Have vou reviewed the message pads that were

recovered from Jeffrey Epstein's Palm Beach residence in

20057

A. Yes.

o. Do those message pads include several messages
with name and/or phone number on them?

A. Yes.

io. Do those message-pad excerpts date between the

vears 2003 and 20057
A. Yes,

2. Up on this slide right now, are those two examples

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of message-pad excerpts that reference [|

A. Yes.
io. Would vou please walk the grand jury through these

message pad excerpts?

Fa Sure. The first one says the message 1s for
Mr. Epstein. The date is 3/1/2003.

2. I'm sorry, I think you said 3/1, did you mean
3/117

A. I'm sorry. It's a little faded. 3/11/2003. The

message 1s from ne and the phone number -- also a
little faded here -- but says,  R The second message
says it's for JE, Jeffrey Epstein; the date is March 16,
2003; the message is from I same number as the
previous message 1s | The message on the bottom

says she wants to work.

2. And just to remind the grand jury, did ne
tell you that there were times when she would call to ask to
massage Epstein so that she could get more money for drugs?

A. Yes.

Qo. Turning to the next slide. Are these additional
message pad excerpts seized from Jeffrey Epstein's
Palm Beach residence in 20057

A. Yes.

2. Would you please walk the grand jury through

these?

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A, Sure. The first one on the left says the message
is for JE, Jeffrey Epstein. It's from [ §
There's -- the date 1s missing on this one, but it says the

time is 12:30. The phone number is F The one

on the right says the message is also, again, JE for
Jeffrey Epstein. There's no date; the time is 3:15 p.m.
It's from ne | phone number  K The
message states, BB wants to work.

o. Curing the search in 2005 of Epstein's Palm Beach
residence were additional messages recovered that are not
included on these slides?

A. Yes.

io. Additionally, were multiple massage tables seized
from the residence in 20057

A. Yes,

0. Was at least one of those tables manufactured
outside of the state of Florida?

A. Yes.

o. Have you reviewed photographs and a video
recording from that 2005 search of the Palm Beach residence?

A. Yes.

io. Would you please describe for the grand jury,
pased on those photographs and that video, what the massage
room in the Palm Beach residence looked like?

A. Sure. It was basically a master bathroom. There

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was glass doors which appear to go back into a shower.
There's a sink in the room; there is a couch in the room;
there's several door in the room, one of which leads into a
closet. Inside of the closet on the walls, also on the
walls of the massage room, there were multiple photographs,
some of them being of nude women.

2. Was there also a massage table in that closet?

Ih. Yes. Photographed was a massage table inside of
the closet.

0. Have vou told the grand jury everything you know
about this case, or have you merely answered the questions
that I've asked you?

Fa I've merely answered the guestions.

2. When vou testified about conversations you had
with others, or documents you reviewed, did you testify to
the exact words or just the substance?

Ih. Just the substance.

0. And are you willing to return to the grand jury if
the grand jurors have additional questions for you?

A, Cf course.

MS. Then with the Foreperson's permission
I'll ask that the witness please be excused.
FOREFPERSON. Yes, he may.

MS. ne Thank you.

(Witness Excused)

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(Time Noted:

03/29/2021

12:15 p.m.)

(Colloguy Follows)

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I hereby certify that the foregoing 1s a true and
accurate transcription,

from my electronic notes of this proceeding.

April 5, 2021

Date

CERTIFICATE

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to the best of my skill and ability,

| __ Reporter

Free State Reporting, Inc.

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